Re: [PATCH 00/10] RFC/RFT: Optionally copy all routes and addresses for pasta, allow gateway-less routes

[David Gibson <david@gibson.dropbear.id.au>]

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On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 08:52:50AM +0200, Stefano Brivio wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2023 11:15:06 +1000
> David Gibson <david@gibson.dropbear.id.au> wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 11:42:09PM +0200, Stefano Brivio wrote:
> > > On Tue, 16 May 2023 15:06:29 +1000
> > > David Gibson <david@gibson.dropbear.id.au> wrote:
> > >   
> > > > On Sun, May 14, 2023 at 08:14:05PM +0200, Stefano Brivio wrote:  
> > > > > This series, along with pseudo-related fixes, enables:
> > > > > 
> > > > > - optional copy of all routes from selected interface in outer
> > > > >   namespace, to (hopefully!) fix the issue reported by Callum at:
> > > > >     https://github.com/containers/podman/issues/18539
> > > > > 
> > > > > - optional copy of all addresses, mostly for consistency. It doesn't,
> > > > >   however, enable assignment of multiple addresses in the sense
> > > > >   requested at:
> > > > >     https://bugs.passt.top/show_bug.cgi?id=47
> > > > > 
> > > > >   because the addresses still need to be present on the host, and
> > > > >   the "outer" address isn't selected depending on the address used
> > > > >   inside the container
> > > > > 
> > > > > - operation without a gateway address, to (again, hopefully) support
> > > > >   usage of Wireguard endpoints established outside the container,
> > > > >     https://bugs.passt.top/show_bug.cgi?id=49
> > > > > 
> > > > > I tested the single functionalities introduced here, but I didn't
> > > > > try to reproduce the setups where the issues were reported, so some
> > > > > help with testing is definitely fundamental here. Thanks.    
> > > > 
> > > > I've sent reviews for some of the simpler patches in this series which
> > > > make sense even without the context of the overall aim.  I think those
> > > > can be applied immediately.  
> > > 
> > > Those are actually the least important patches for users  
> > 
> > Well, granted.
> > 
> > > -- and I can't
> > > apply 6/10 without breaking Podman's CI plus probably a number of
> > > deployments (that's why it comes after 5/10)... so, no, I would rather
> > > not apply the rest for the moment.  
> > 
> > Uh.. true, 6/10 is problematic, but I think the other easy ones could
> > be applied safely enough.
> 
> With two hands and (worryingly close to) just 24 hours in a day, I
> honestly can't picture even a quick rebase and retest for those being a
> priority, while happily keeping around the issue that 5/10 fixes.

Yeah, ok, fair enough.  This sort of thing is, of course, why I'm
spending so much effort trying to improve the testing situation.

> > > > For the rest of the series, I want to address the generalities before
> > > > doing detailed review of the implementation.
> > > > 
> > > > I think the basic idea here is sound: we want to expose anything
> > > > routable to the host as routable to the guest, even when the host has
> > > > a more complex routing setup that just a netmask on the "main"
> > > > interface and a default gateway within that prefix.  
> > > 
> > > The intentions behind this series are actually slightly different:
> > > 
> > > - we have a complete breakage in a seemingly common use case (I would
> > >   even say cloud-init setups in general), and I'd like to fix that
> > >   sooner rather than later  
> > 
> > Well, sure, but we should at least think about where we're going with
> > this longer term, so we don't box ourselves in.
> 
> I don't think this is going to "box us in" -- I'm just proposing to
> change this after about two years, and we can definitely change it
> again, as long as things keep working. If keeping things working is
> boxing us in, well, I can't see that as a bad thing.
> 
> That is, I don't see people doing screen-scraping of 'ip route show'
> and writing applications around that, and surely not adapting
> applications to what pasta does. Not at the moment, and surely not for
> a long while.

That's a good point - but also supports what I'm saying below about
having some wiggle room about what we do at L3.

> > > - this concerns only the direct configuration pasta does, with
> > >   --config-net. What we advertise is definitely related, but not the
> > >   same topic... to the point that the issues fixed by this series don't
> > >   even occur with a DHCP client:
> > >     https://github.com/containers/podman/issues/18539#issuecomment-1545023424  
> > 
> > Ah, interesting.  It looks like dhclient (or rather dhclient-script, I
> > expect) is adding an explicit /32 route to the default gateway.  It
> > seems to me the best quick fix for --config-net is to do the same
> > thing.  Basically rather than expanding the netmask as we did in 6/10,
> > if the gateway address is not in the interface's netmask add a /32 or
> > /128 route to the gateway.
> 
> That's the first option I considered (of course!):
>   https://github.com/containers/podman/issues/18539#issuecomment-1545260780
>   https://github.com/containers/podman/issues/18539#issuecomment-1546967377
> 
> and only as I started implementing it, I realised that we can have
> anyway chained dependencies which aren't that easy to handle, especially
> if we admit an arbitrary number of routes and we need to sort them.

I'm not understanding where these dependencies are coming from.  I'm
not proposing copying anything from the host here, what I'm suggesting
is that --config-net do the equivalent of:

	if ($gw not in <ifi's built in prefix>)
		ip route add $gw/32 dev $ifname

> Plus it's going to be 1. more code 2. actually "complicated" code. This
> is stupidly simple instead.
> 
> I have some experience of fixing IPv6 FIB code in kernel with
> consequences on sorting/selection, and there are just so many hidden
> details involved in interpretation of Linux-style routes and ways of
> shadowing them.

Right, this sounds like more reason to be nervous of blindly copying
routes from the host: it's hard to know how we'll have to tweak them
to make sense in the guest context.

> > >   And, in general, we can't advertise everything we can configure (say,
> > >   a route without router over DHCP).  
> > 
> > Ah, true.  The DHCP options for static routes are even more limited
> > than I realized.  Ok, that nixes option B.3.
> > 
> > >   I'd be much more careful about what we advertise. We have direct
> > >   control of what we configure via netlink, but for DHCP, NDP, DHCPv6,
> > >   we need to think of possible interpretations and common half-bugs as
> > >   well.
> > >   
> > > > But I think we want to think a bit more deeply about exactly what we
> > > > need/want to expose here.
> > > > 
> > > > Even with the current code, the default gateway address we advertise
> > > > to the guest is kind of meaningless: the guest cannot directly access
> > > > that gateway, everything really goes through passt on the host.  
> > > 
> > > In the simplest, probably most common network setups, that's actually
> > > the gateway that connects our guest to other nodes.  
> > 
> > I don't understand what you mean by this.  Yes, we have the same IP
> > for the gateway that the host sees, but the NAT to host means that we
> > can't even talk to the gateway at L4.
> 
> It's disabled by default in Podman. It's the default behaviour in
> passt because this started from KubeVirt and that's what they expect,
> but that's about it. Once the address is configurable, this is not a
> valid point, in general.
> 
> A gateway doesn't need to be a host, and it's very often, functionally,
> not a host. This is by design: RFC 791, 2.2:
> 
>   In a gateway the higher level protocols need not be implemented and
>   the GGP functions are added to the IP module.
> 
> > Literally the only thing the guest kernel will do with that gateway
> > address is put it into ARP and neighbour discovery packets, which passt
> > will resolve to its own MAC, like nearly every other IP.
> 
> No, the guest kernel might also have netfilter rules, specifying that
> gateway address, that were originally designed for the host, as if guest
> and passt didn't exist. Those might happily use the gateway address to
> represent the notion of gateway.

Ok... trying to improve my understanding of this case.

If we are using NAT to host on the gateway address, that would
silently change the semantics of ip filter rules using that address,
which doesn't seem great.

If we're not using map-gw, and the rules are about filtering traffic
going to the gateway in it's (possible) capacity as just another host,
then those rules are still valid, regardless of whether that address
is still the gateway in the guest.

Are you considering a case where a guest-side script is building the
iptables rules based on the gateway address (which it retrieves from
ip route show, or dhcp or something)?  Or something else?


> > > For other cases, I think we should eventually implement
> > > https://bugs.passt.top/show_bug.cgi?id=47 anyway, and it goes without
> > > saying that, then, we can't just use the same host route no matter what
> > > the container chooses. We'll need to match them.  
> > 
> > Oh.. I'm wondering if I've been confusing by using "host route" in two
> > different ways: one being "a route taken from the passt host system"
> > and the other meaning "a route to a single network host, that is /32
> > or /128".
> > 
> > I agree that we should move to allowing multiple IPs on the guest
> > side, but I don't see how that conflicts with the routing issue here.
> 
> It's related because, once we allow them, different host routes should
> actually be used, so having them in the guest/container too,
> aiming at a 1:1 mapping, should simplify things rather than become
> misleading.

But whatever routers we set in the guest, they'll all ARP back to the
same thing, so I'm not sure what difference it makes.

> > > I mean, I'm not saying that the behaviour from this series is complete
> > > and self-consistent, just that it works around obvious, urgent issues
> > > and at the same time it looks like we'll probably need something
> > > similar to support further use cases.  
> > 
> > Adding a /32 or /128 route to the gateway seems a simpler way to do
> > that to me.  Plus it matches the behaviour that DHCP seems to be doing
> > anyway.
> 
> For the reason why it's not really simple, see above. About what DHCP
> clients do: that's in general not the case for udhcpc, dhcpcd, pump, or
> NetworkManager. See also e1c94637ad50 ("dhcp: Send option 121 if the
> default gateway is not on the assigned subnet").

Oh, I'd missed that option 121 stuff.  I'm guessing dhclient(-script)
is actually setting the route in response to that, rather than it
being built in.  But now I'm even more confused.. what I'm suggesting
is basically the exact equivalent logic for config-net, so I'm not
sure why you're objecting.

[As an aside, option 121 explicitly allows advertising local routes,
which means B.3 is possible with DHCP after all - althouh maybe not
wise, since I gather option 121 isn't necessarily widely supported]

> As far as I know, that's just what the script used in conjunction with
> ISC's dhclient does on _some_ distributions.
> 
> > > > This works because the gateway address (like everything) will ARP/NDP
> > > > to passt's host side MAC address and once the packets hit passt it
> > > > doesn't matter what the guest thought the routing was going to be.
> > > > 
> > > > I think we have a few choices in two more-or-less orthogonal
> > > > categories.
> > > > 
> > > > A) What routable prefixes do we advertise to the guest?
> > > > 
> > > >   A.1) Always a default route (0.0.0.0/0 and ::/0)
> > > > 
> > > > We tell the guest that every address is routable via the passt
> > > > interface, regardless of routing setup on the host.  This essentially
> > > > tells the guest to delegate all routing responsibility to passt.
> > > > 
> > > > Advantages:
> > > >   * Simple
> > > >   * No need to update anything if routing configuration on the host
> > > >     changes
> > > > Disadvantages:
> > > >   * If addresses are unroutable from the host, the guest will only
> > > >     know via ICMP/ICMPv6, rather than statically, which may be a worse
> > > >     UX on the guest side.  Plus we might need to actually implement
> > > >     those host unreachable ICMPs.
> > > >   * Might be messy if the guest has multiple interfacees - e.g. if we
> > > >     allow passt to be configured to attach to a specific host
> > > >     interface only, then we have multiple passts attached to a single
> > > >     guest: they'd all be advertising a default route.
> > > > 
> > > >   A.2) Copy routable prefixes from the host to the guest  
> > > 
> > > I'm having a hard time figuring out the definition of this point. How
> > > would you define that? Strictly speaking, in the case at hand, nothing
> > > is routable: we have a /32 address.  
> > 
> > Right.. which means that if the host is working, it must have an
> > additional static route - also probably /32 - telling it how to get to
> > the gateway.  Indeed I can see it in the bug, initial comment:
> >     172.31.1.1 dev ens3 proto static scope link metric 100
> > With A.2 we'd copy that route to the guest - or at least one with the
> > same prefix (which is a single address in this case).
> 
> Blindly copying routes is one thing. Figuring out what subnets are
> routable and which ones aren't is a different matter, and _that_ is
> what I don't consider generally feasible.

Oh, sorry, I was unclear.  By "routable" I meant just "has a matching
entry in the host's routes" not any deeper analysis of whether they're
actually reachable.  So blindly(ish) copying routes is exactly what
I'm suggesting for A.2

> > > > We just advertise those prefixes routable to the host to the guest
> > > > (which might include an empty prefix == default route).
> > > > 
> > > > Advantages:
> > > >   * Guest statically knows what addresses are routable via the passt
> > > >     interface
> > > > Disadvantages:
> > > >   * What do we do with overlapping prefixes?  On the host we might
> > > >     have more specific routes pointing to a specific interface.  For
> > > >     the guest they all point to the passt interface, so what's the
> > > >     point?
> > > >   * Can we advertise an arbitrary set of static routes via all our
> > > >     mechanisms (--config-net, DHCP, NDP+DHCPv6)?  Even if we can it
> > > >     adds more complexity to that code
> > > >   * How do we update things if the host routing configuration changes?
> > > >   * What do we do if the host has source-based routing or other
> > > >     advanced stuff set up?
> > > > 
> > > > B) What gateway, if any, do we advertise for each route?
> > > > 
> > > >   B.1) Copy it from the host
> > > > 
> > > > Advantages:
> > > >  * Guest L3 configuration resembles that of the host  
> > > 
> > > ...which is a fundamental design goal of passt: transparency, and
> > > pretending it doesn't exist. Otherwise we can have a route, a bridge,
> > > an interface, etc.  
> > 
> > Well... we want to be transparent for anything visible at L4.  For
> > things only visible at L3 - like routes, it's not possible for things
> > to look 100% identical, so I think we have some wiggle room in exactly
> > what we do.
> 
> With this series, in most cases, things will actually be 100% identical.
> 
> But no, the transparency design goal applies especially to L3:
>   https://passt.top/passt/about/#motivation
> 
> let alone ALGs, which are probably less common nowadays -- but with
> service meshes (increasingly common), L3 transparency is very helpful
> to have. Otherwise libslirp would be absolutely enough from that
> perspective.

I'm still not seeing what concrete examples need transparency to the
*routes* rather than just the addresses at L3.

> > > Now, while there are use cases that rely on different aspects of this
> > > transparency (KubeVirt and service mesh integration) I understand this
> > > might sound a bit dogmatic, because you might say there are more
> > > important use cases (which I'm not aware of) or supposed benefits.
> > > 
> > > What's far less dogmatic, though, is how many issues we happily and
> > > automatically avoid by relying on the sanity of the host networking
> > > configuration.
> > > 
> > > By trying to copy it as close as possible, we avoid one very important
> > > source of issues, which is our interpretation or possible lack of
> > > knowledge about how applications we don't know about chose to interact
> > > with kernel and network setups. The main case fixed by this series
> > > shows exactly that: I think it's broken, but it works, and users
> > > expect it to work.
> > > 
> > > And by trusting the host configuration we don't lose much: if that's
> > > broken, almost everything else is broken anyway.  
> > 
> > It's not a question of "trust" in the host configuration, it's the
> > fact that parts of the host configuration don't make sense in the
> > guest's context.  Most obviously the interface names from the host
> > routes can't be used in the guest.
> 
> By default, with containers, even interface names are copied. Indices,
> of course, aren't, but that's not something users or applications
> typically try to fiddle with.

Huh?  If the interface name is anything other than the pasta template
interface, it won't even exist in the guest.  So how can you possibly
copy it?

> > We can and do use the same
> > addresses for the routers, but what does it really mean?  The guest
> > can't actually contact them as neighbours - when it tries they just
> > ARP to passt's fake MAC and the packets get routed by the host kernel
> > regardless of what router the guest was trying to send them to - in
> > fact neither passt nor the host kernel will even know what router the
> > guest thought it was using.
> 
> This is an L2 matter, which was never a problem for any project using
> this.

It's really not, we'll absolutely hit the IP stack for routing, not
just the datalink layer in the host kernel.

> > > > Disadvantages:
> > > >  * If the host route doesn't have a gateway we have to fall back on
> > > >    B.2 or B.3 anyway  
> > > 
> > > Well, they are a particular case of B.1 then: what's the disadvantage?  
> > 
> > Two cases is more complex than one.
> 
> ...but, with this series, we don't implement two different cases...?
> 
> > > This is consistent (especially with this series, and especially if we
> > > start adapting the *default* behaviours in this sense).
> > >   
> > > >  * Misleading: in fact everything is routed by passt and the host
> > > >    before it reaches any gateway we're listing here  
> > > 
> > > But passt isn't supposed to be a router...? Let's say we have multiple
> > > routes on the host, we configure or advertise multiple routes to the
> > > guest. Does that make passt a router? I don't think so: we're just
> > > associating them as closely as possible, without fancy interpretations.
> > > 
> > > A router has its own routing table, passt's would simply be a copy.
> > > Right now it has essentially none.  
> > 
> > Sorry, by "passt" here I really meant the host kernel, which
> > absolutely will route the packets.  There's no guarantee they'll even
> > go next to the router the guest thought it was using, although it's
> > likely.
> 
> Right. I'd just try to make it as likely as possible. That doesn't come
> with this series, and, for instance, me@yawnt.com already checked and
> told me this series isn't enough for the "regular" Wireguard case (with
> the endpoint in the outer namespace), but this clearly appears to be
> getting closer to what we'll need to "naturally" support that.
> 
> > > >   B.2) Pick an address to represent passt as gateway
> > > > 
> > > > Advantages:
> > > >  * Accurately represents that everything is routed by passt  
> > > 
> > > This is configurable, actually, but no, I insist that passt isn't
> > > *functionally* routing anything, or at least that we should get as
> > > close as possible to that.  
> > 
> > Again, the host kernel definitely will, and there's no avoiding that.
> > 
> > > >  * We can make this the same as the NAT-to-host address, so we only
> > > >    have one "magic" address (per AF)  
> > > 
> > > Not really, if it's configurable.  
> > 
> > I mean one per passt instance, not one globally.  As opposed to the
> > gateway address and the NAT-to-host address being potentially
> > different magic addresses in a single instance.
> > 
> > > > Disadvantages:
> > > >  * Have to allocate an address that's safe, which is tricky (but we
> > > >    usually want this for NAT-to-host anyway)  
> > > 
> > > There's a difference between picking an address by default and letting
> > > the user configure one. Besides, at least for IPv4, I don't think such
> > > an address exists.  
> > 
> > There certainly isn't one we can use everywhere.  I think we have some
> > options for probing one that will be safe in a particular case.
> 
> Well... that doesn't sound great.

Of course.  We're trying to allocate scarce IP space out of nowhere,
it's always going to be messy.

> > > >  * Do we want just one address, or one for each distinct gateway from
> > > >    the host?
> > > >  * If we can't pick something in the interfaces "natural" prefix, we
> > > >    will also need to advertise a static route to reach it.
> > > > 
> > > >   B.3) Don't advertise a gateway for any route
> > > > 
> > > > passt essentially proxy ARPs for the entire internet.
> > > > 
> > > > Advantages:
> > > >   * No need to allocate an address - in fact passt need not have any
> > > >     guest facing IP at all
> > > >   * Extends naturally if we ever have a guest<->passt transport that's
> > > >     point-to-point rather than pseudo-ethernet
> > > > Disadvantages:
> > > >   * Guest ARP / neighbour tables could get real big  
> > > 
> > > ...it would also break a number of applications that peek at netlink
> > > (or do ioctl()s) to check they are in fact online.  
> > 
> > Uh.. what exactly are they looking at?  We'd still have at least one
> > route, they just wouldn't have gateways attached to them.  But as you
> > pointed out above I don't think we can do this with DHCP, which pretty
> > much kills it anyway.
> > 
> > > > The status quo is, roughly, A.1+B.1, except that we also enforce that
> > > > the host must have a default route, which sidesteps one of the
> > > > complications of B.1.  IIUC, this series is implementing A.2+B.1.
> > > > 
> > > > Thinking about it, I'm moderately convinced that B.1 is a bad idea.
> > > > I'm leaning towards B.2 - combining it with the NAT-to-host cleanups
> > > > to have a more concrete guest-visible address for passt itself - but
> > > > I'm also open to B.3.  
> > > 
> > > ...that, especially B.3, sounds like another tool, or at least like
> > > another mode, because it conflicts quite a bit with design goals.  
> > 
> > > They're different from design _choices_ in the sense that that's what
> > > I've been "selling" to users and what I and others have been
> > > implementing in integrations so far.  
> > 
> > So the ways L4 transparency are valuable (including guest address) are
> > pretty clear to me.  Are there also cases where the (partial) L3
> > transparency matter?  They're certainly not obvious to me
> 
> Absolutely, and I thought I explained this a number of times, but...
> service meshes using netfilter. Applications being moved from "host" to
> containers, or from containers to VMs. That's where we want to pretend
> nothing changes, and that usually causes more L3 headaches rather than
> L4.

I'm clear on how NAT breaks everything.  But I'm still not seeing how
the list of routes matters.

> > > > I'm not sure about A.1 vs. A.2.  I was leaning towards A.2, but on
> > > > further consideration, I feel like the fact that A.1 automatically
> > > > works for routing changes on the host might outweigh the fact that he
> > > > guest only gets limited information (ICMP) about what's routable.  
> > > 
> > > I don't think A.2 is doable,  
> > 
> > ?? AFAICT this series is doing A.2
> 
> Not really, we're not figuring out routable prefixes, just blindly
> copying routing entries. It's closer to A.2 than A.1, but it's not
> that, either.

Again, the only "figuring out of routable prefixes" I was suggesting
for A.2 is "is there an entry in the host routing table".
i.e. blindly copying route entries.

-- 
David Gibson			| I'll have my music baroque, and my code
david AT gibson.dropbear.id.au	| minimalist, thank you.  NOT _the_ _other_
				| _way_ _around_!
http://www.ozlabs.org/~dgibson

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